Not long winded at all mate, good ideas and pointers there for sure.We’ll take these onboard and incorporate into our next game....
Cold War rules?
Re: Cold War rules?
Cheers Richard, many thanx for your insights there, much obliged to you...... Not long winded at all mate, good ideas and pointers there for sure.
We’ll take these onboard and incorporate into our next game....
Not long winded at all mate, good ideas and pointers there for sure.We’ll take these onboard and incorporate into our next game....
Greatness is not in where we stand,
but in what direction we are moving,
we must sail sometimes in the wind,
and sometimes against it,
but sail we must, and not drift nor lie at anchor.
but in what direction we are moving,
we must sail sometimes in the wind,
and sometimes against it,
but sail we must, and not drift nor lie at anchor.
Re: Cold War rules?
Something I forgot that Simon came up with during our game.....
To simulate better laser range finders, how about if one is used, the gamer gets to measure the range before they decide to fire or not. ( We don’t allow any measuring until after the decision is made to fire)
Thought that would be a nice touch....
To simulate better laser range finders, how about if one is used, the gamer gets to measure the range before they decide to fire or not. ( We don’t allow any measuring until after the decision is made to fire)
Thought that would be a nice touch....
Greatness is not in where we stand,
but in what direction we are moving,
we must sail sometimes in the wind,
and sometimes against it,
but sail we must, and not drift nor lie at anchor.
but in what direction we are moving,
we must sail sometimes in the wind,
and sometimes against it,
but sail we must, and not drift nor lie at anchor.
Re: Cold War rules?
As a crew Commander you can ‘Lase’ the target at any stage just to obtain the range - before deciding if you want to engage. So you are spot on. 
From 1980 onwards British TLS were accurate to + - 10 Metres. Hope this helps.
From 1980 onwards British TLS were accurate to + - 10 Metres. Hope this helps.-
Bob_Mackenzie
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Re: Cold War rules?
The legendary FITOW!
I'm not sure it ever entered service - references to it a fleeting and lacking in detail
I am however pretty certain the initial Brit version was the ITOW. My notes give an IOC of 1981 for the Lynx TOW
Cheers
Bob
I'm not sure it ever entered service - references to it a fleeting and lacking in detail
I am however pretty certain the initial Brit version was the ITOW. My notes give an IOC of 1981 for the Lynx TOW
Cheers
Bob
Andy Rix wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:49 am FITOW was top attack, anybody got an inservice date for FITOW? Ganders 1995 Britains Modern Army talks about it in the future tense and its not mentioned in the 86 version of the same. I have recollections of learning about it and I did a technical weapons course in 1992/93.
When TOW appeared on Lynx is also an interesting question. It was selected in 1978 as far as I can see but after that references talk to in service in the early 80's, I have pictures in books published in 1985 of lynx with tow and the TI system wasn't available until 86/87.
I am pretty sure we used the BGM 71B or ITOW version which was developed in 78, mainly because I recall seeing diagrams of our missile with the probe but could be wrong. This version had a larger warhead and optimised stand off delivered by the probe so would expect better performance than the US originals, although that depends on the granularity of the categories of HEAT warhead performance in the rules.
Re: Cold War rules?
Cheers, many thanx....
Greatness is not in where we stand,
but in what direction we are moving,
we must sail sometimes in the wind,
and sometimes against it,
but sail we must, and not drift nor lie at anchor.
but in what direction we are moving,
we must sail sometimes in the wind,
and sometimes against it,
but sail we must, and not drift nor lie at anchor.
Re: Cold War rules?
We have a blanket rule in all our wargames, regardless of period - no pre-measuring of ranges unless you have a laser rangefinder. if you've measured a range or a potential move, you've fired or actually moved that unit that distance. if you miss or don't make it - tough!
Mark
Mark
Re: Cold War rules?
If only it were that simple.
TLS is not the only means of range finding. The WP used Stadia Metric range finders which were very quick to use. They were so accurate that the British Army adopted them and they were a feature from late 1980s , in the top right hand side of the X10 Eyepiece. The Germans used Coincidence into the late 80s and again, very accurate and swift. Sorry to add complications and not sure if this helps ?
TLS is not the only means of range finding. The WP used Stadia Metric range finders which were very quick to use. They were so accurate that the British Army adopted them and they were a feature from late 1980s , in the top right hand side of the X10 Eyepiece. The Germans used Coincidence into the late 80s and again, very accurate and swift. Sorry to add complications and not sure if this helps ?
Re: Cold War rules?
No worries, many thanx, the more info the better......
Greatness is not in where we stand,
but in what direction we are moving,
we must sail sometimes in the wind,
and sometimes against it,
but sail we must, and not drift nor lie at anchor.
but in what direction we are moving,
we must sail sometimes in the wind,
and sometimes against it,
but sail we must, and not drift nor lie at anchor.
-
Bob_Mackenzie
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- Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:42 pm
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Re: Cold War rules?
Hi SABOTSABOT wrote: ↑Sat Apr 14, 2018 3:58 pm If only it were that simple.
TLS is not the only means of range finding. The WP used Stadia Metric range finders which were very quick to use. They were so accurate that the British Army adopted them and they were a feature from late 1980s , in the top right hand side of the X10 Eyepiece. The Germans used Coincidence into the late 80s and again, very accurate and swift. Sorry to add complications and not sure if this helps ?
Did you really mean to say Stadia was accurate?
It seems to me it can be accurate, if you happen to be firing at a target that's the correct length and that target is square on. Outside those ideal parameters I would think that accuracy suffers?
Going back to range finders, coincidence and stereoscopic range-finders were about in the late 19th century and were available to field gun and MG units in WW1. So if you are basing pre measuring on the availability of a range finder its even less straight forward than SABOT describes
Cheers
Bob
Re: Cold War rules?
Yes Bob, it really was pretty effective in the Rev Modes aspects of steam gunnery. Based on a T64 (our anticipated main opponent) it was better than range estimation by most crew commanders. Also aided perhaps by the tightness of the trajectory of KE at all ranges. We trained to ‘Stadia’ a target in varying situations based on what you could see head on or side on, top of turret to bottom of tracks but adjusted the measurement based on how much you could see of the target I.e. we used a half stadia etc.
To qualify this I should point out that we were also using a standard ‘Battle Range’ 1200 M aiming mark on the Kinetic Energy graticule pattern which, covered ranges between 800m up to 1500M. You stood a good chance of a first round hit if the target was full size due to the tightness of the trajectory for KE projectiles.
There are a number of other means of gaining the range from Range Cards through to using a map , all of which had a use but obviously TLS was quickest and best means. When it worked. Rain badly affected lasers, as did fog or mist as the return beam was scattered.
To qualify this I should point out that we were also using a standard ‘Battle Range’ 1200 M aiming mark on the Kinetic Energy graticule pattern which, covered ranges between 800m up to 1500M. You stood a good chance of a first round hit if the target was full size due to the tightness of the trajectory for KE projectiles.
There are a number of other means of gaining the range from Range Cards through to using a map , all of which had a use but obviously TLS was quickest and best means. When it worked. Rain badly affected lasers, as did fog or mist as the return beam was scattered.
-
Bob_Mackenzie
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Re: Cold War rules?
That's a very interesting post, thanks for taking the time.
The use of a standard battle range is the first time I have heard of the practice beyond a passing reference to the Israeli use of the procedure during the Yom Kippur war. However it always struck me as a "no brainer" so I was surprised not to hear of it more. A quick trawl of the web seems to indicate that the US Army uses it but references are scanty.
I'm curious to know how you trained on the stadia, given there was a dearth of T-64s in the west at the time. Scale models?
Thanks for making the point about degradation of lasers in rain / fog or smoke, it makes perfect sense. Given the often sh*tty weather in Germans roughly how much of the time do you reckon you were relying on revisionary mode?
I'd also like to ask a question about shooting HE at troops in the open. I have a suspicion that at certain ranges HE doesn't fuse properly due to the oblique angle it grazes the ground, or would I have that all wrong? Perhaps HESH is different to vanilla HE?
Sorry to badger with so many questions
Cheers
Bob
The use of a standard battle range is the first time I have heard of the practice beyond a passing reference to the Israeli use of the procedure during the Yom Kippur war. However it always struck me as a "no brainer" so I was surprised not to hear of it more. A quick trawl of the web seems to indicate that the US Army uses it but references are scanty.
I'm curious to know how you trained on the stadia, given there was a dearth of T-64s in the west at the time. Scale models?
Thanks for making the point about degradation of lasers in rain / fog or smoke, it makes perfect sense. Given the often sh*tty weather in Germans roughly how much of the time do you reckon you were relying on revisionary mode?
I'd also like to ask a question about shooting HE at troops in the open. I have a suspicion that at certain ranges HE doesn't fuse properly due to the oblique angle it grazes the ground, or would I have that all wrong? Perhaps HESH is different to vanilla HE?
Sorry to badger with so many questions
Cheers
Bob
Re: Cold War rules?
No problems Bob, you have posted so much interesting info over the past few years I have appreciate all your efforts and a pleasure to be talking Gunnery. 
Main training was by GTS ( Gunnery Training Simulator). All of the MBT targets on the screen were T64 and were scaled to correct range profiles in all aspects i.e. full size, hull down, static and movers. Upon lasing the target using full system CSS an ellipse shaped aiming mark appears around the target T64. This has to fit top and bottom or else it means the calculated leased range is incorrect. You would then ‘abort ‘ and relase and begin the engage sequence again . At this point , or if the TLS failed ( they did quite often over heat) then you would go straight into a Rev Modes technique.
The Rev Modes technique means we are using the Graticule scale, a specific range aligned point has to be laid onto target in such a way as to end the lay of the gun in a final movement of elevation - at least a turn and a half of the elevation hand wheel. This is to overcome elevation backlash in the elevation gears caused by wear. The range is given by the Commander to the Gunner and here the Crew Commander must order either a known range ( perhaps a previous engagement like two tanks side by side) , estimated ( shockingly inaccurate mostly) , the battle range of 1200 or “Stadia” whereby the Gunner knows to use the Stadia (or the Crew Commander could do this himself first as he has one in his Commanders Sight). It is important to remember that you cannot give/make corrections when firing KE ammunition.
Still with me Guys?
Main training was by GTS ( Gunnery Training Simulator). All of the MBT targets on the screen were T64 and were scaled to correct range profiles in all aspects i.e. full size, hull down, static and movers. Upon lasing the target using full system CSS an ellipse shaped aiming mark appears around the target T64. This has to fit top and bottom or else it means the calculated leased range is incorrect. You would then ‘abort ‘ and relase and begin the engage sequence again . At this point , or if the TLS failed ( they did quite often over heat) then you would go straight into a Rev Modes technique.
The Rev Modes technique means we are using the Graticule scale, a specific range aligned point has to be laid onto target in such a way as to end the lay of the gun in a final movement of elevation - at least a turn and a half of the elevation hand wheel. This is to overcome elevation backlash in the elevation gears caused by wear. The range is given by the Commander to the Gunner and here the Crew Commander must order either a known range ( perhaps a previous engagement like two tanks side by side) , estimated ( shockingly inaccurate mostly) , the battle range of 1200 or “Stadia” whereby the Gunner knows to use the Stadia (or the Crew Commander could do this himself first as he has one in his Commanders Sight). It is important to remember that you cannot give/make corrections when firing KE ammunition.
Still with me Guys?
Re: Cold War rules?
We used Rev Modes approx 30% of total engagements - rising in poor weather. When an obvious range read out from the Laser was apparent , we used the Range Logic Box which had two settings. First / Last. On Last logic the TLS would pick up the last part of the laser beam as it had refracted because of the rain or mist. The Last setting was slightly slower but more accurate.
We used Rev Modes whenever a full system fault occurred - mainly TLS but it could be any component failure within the CSS.
We used Rev Modes whenever a full system fault occurred - mainly TLS but it could be any component failure within the CSS.
Re: Cold War rules?
I love HESH. It has so many qualities and in my opinion is way better than HE as a general purpose round . It’s explosive capability is slightly inferior to HE but it has dual roles , HE characteristics, bunker busting and AFV destroying.
British 120mm HESH is fired at a MV of 670 MPS. It is armed in the barrel by the spinning imparted by the rifling. It has no minimum range restrictions and the delayed base fuze means it gives the squash head time to do its job. It looks bloody spectacular when it goes off and is extremely accurate/consistent and can be fired in the Direct, Semi - Indirect and Indirect role up to 14.5 KM.
British 120mm HESH is fired at a MV of 670 MPS. It is armed in the barrel by the spinning imparted by the rifling. It has no minimum range restrictions and the delayed base fuze means it gives the squash head time to do its job. It looks bloody spectacular when it goes off and is extremely accurate/consistent and can be fired in the Direct, Semi - Indirect and Indirect role up to 14.5 KM.
Re: Cold War rules?
Many thanx for most enlightening insights....
Greatness is not in where we stand,
but in what direction we are moving,
we must sail sometimes in the wind,
and sometimes against it,
but sail we must, and not drift nor lie at anchor.
but in what direction we are moving,
we must sail sometimes in the wind,
and sometimes against it,
but sail we must, and not drift nor lie at anchor.
Re: Cold War rules?
Hi All
Not wanting to stop the very interesting gunnery discussion which I'm enjoying but just wanted to let you know I've updated/re-jigged the new rules section after some playtesting of the Soviet Battle Drill rule and added some rules around missile ammo reloading. It can all be found here:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1O8j9Q ... mtQayuvZDb
Thanks
Richard
PS - still waiting for some pics of the last playtest game you guys played....
R
Not wanting to stop the very interesting gunnery discussion which I'm enjoying but just wanted to let you know I've updated/re-jigged the new rules section after some playtesting of the Soviet Battle Drill rule and added some rules around missile ammo reloading. It can all be found here:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1O8j9Q ... mtQayuvZDb
Thanks
Richard
PS - still waiting for some pics of the last playtest game you guys played....
R
My Blog: http://coldwarhot.blogspot.com.au/
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Bob_Mackenzie
- Posts: 177
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Re: Cold War rules?
I was most certainly with you and thanks for taking the time
Range estimation errors in experiments run from approx 25-30% - can dig out the refs if needed - which as you say is shockingly inaccurate.
Given this was pretty much the only way from a WW2 tank to range, its the biggest contributing factor to the chance of hitting.
One further question - could the stadia be used with the thermal sight? I guess it was on Challenger but not of Chieftain?
Cheers
Bob
Re: Cold War rules?
Cheers Bob.
It was fitted into the TLS on both CH and CR1.
It was also used on both MBTs with TOGS but, not in the same way. Using the Stadia on TI meant toggling the Stadia graticule to fit the target rather than a fixed graded scale with a bottom horizontal line.
It was fitted into the TLS on both CH and CR1.
It was also used on both MBTs with TOGS but, not in the same way. Using the Stadia on TI meant toggling the Stadia graticule to fit the target rather than a fixed graded scale with a bottom horizontal line.
Re: Cold War rules?
Hi Gents
Just letting you know of the Battlegroup Forum I have updated all the Soviet lists taking into account all the feedback I have received. I hope you find it useful and remain keen for any feedback. Lists are here:
http://battlegroupwargame.forumotion.co ... viet-lists
Thanks
Richard
Just letting you know of the Battlegroup Forum I have updated all the Soviet lists taking into account all the feedback I have received. I hope you find it useful and remain keen for any feedback. Lists are here:
http://battlegroupwargame.forumotion.co ... viet-lists
Thanks
Richard
My Blog: http://coldwarhot.blogspot.com.au/
Re: Cold War rules?
Cheers Richard, many thanx.... Hoping to get another game in soonest.... 
Hoping to get another game in soonest.... Greatness is not in where we stand,
but in what direction we are moving,
we must sail sometimes in the wind,
and sometimes against it,
but sail we must, and not drift nor lie at anchor.
but in what direction we are moving,
we must sail sometimes in the wind,
and sometimes against it,
but sail we must, and not drift nor lie at anchor.