WW2 German vehicle number plates and divisional insignia

[sediment]

Hi all,

I'm trying to find out if German armoured vehicles, other than Sdkfz 250 and 251 variants, carried number plates. I can't seem to find any examples of WW2 images showing plates in my ventures on Google. I'm particularly interested in late war, but any period would be useful.

Also, were divisional insignia displayed on tracked vehicles. Again, I can't find any clear images on Google showing divisional insignia on vehicles like Stugs, Pz IVs or Jagdpanzers/Jagdpanthers. I'm particularly interested in Stugs from 9th SS Armour for the Market Garden and/or Ardennes campaigns. If so, where were they displayed?

Cheers, Andy

[7dot62mm]

I'm trying to find out if German armoured vehicles, other than Sdkfz 250 and 251 variants, carried number plates.

Armored cars such as the Sd.Kfz 22x, 231 etc. certainly had number plates.

[7dot62mm]

One reason you often have trouble seeing divisional signs on vehicles is that they were often blocked out by censors as here:



I suspect the divisional sign would be on the front plate where the rectangle is.

[7dot62mm]

Is there a divisional sign on the Hetzer glacis, above, near the Notek light? Das Reich maybe?


Stug Abteilung 197? Not sure what the hieroglyph is.



Stug Abteilung 210


Panzer III of Das Reich


SS-Totenkopf Panthers

[mausmann]

Great pics there, thanx for posting...

[sediment]

Thanks for those - thought the armoured cars probably had plates, but tanks don't seem to have carried them. Interesting about censorship, I have seen a photo of the Pz III on its side and the divisional insignia isn't visible at all. I'll try and dig it out. Great photos of the Stugs though, gives me some ideas as to where to put insignia.

Cheers, Andy

[7dot62mm]

I can't take credit for any of the photos, I'm just googling stuff others have posted...


A Das Reich Tiger...


Another one...

[Alanmccoubrey]

I believe that the Das Reich Hetzer is a doctored re-enactors' photograph, DR was never issued that type of vehicle.

The "A" on the front of the StuG III is the gun letter, these were artillery units remember so used the old stye artillery markings until the introduction of the tank stye of numbering.

It was relatively unusual for a Panther unit to use any divisional sign, the only ones that I can remember seeing are Totenkopf as you've posted and 24 PD whose Panther used the leaping Horseman sign even when they were away form the Division fighting in the west.

Andy, The StuG's of Hohenstaufen at Arnhem don't appear to have carried the Divisional sign but some of them did have Mickey Mouse painted on the side of the superstructure, I kid you not. They also belonged to the Panzer Regiment so carried tactical numbering for the II Abteilung and also the Panzer Rhomboid on the front with a company number beside it and of course the crew were tankers not artillerymen so Pink Waffenfarbe not red.
In your searching you might come across tanks with normal registration numbers, this happened when a tank was being used in testing or as a driver training vehicle at a school.

[7dot62mm]

Thanks for the clarifications, Alan!

[sediment]

Thanks Alan,

That's very helpful re 9th SS. Now how good is my sketching for MM in 1.72 scale? I painted the crews some time back, so will have to check what colour Waffenfarbe I used, possibly red as I believe that is more common.

Strange that my Google searches don't turn up any wartime photos that are clear enough to see details like the markings clearly. As you point out, the re-enactors photos outnumber the vintage stuff and monochrome versions of colour photos can be quite misleading.

Cheers, Andy

[ray]

Hi Andy wartime WW2 photos are really no help unless in colour . Just get a good book on German uniforms and vehicles will be the thing and searching on the NET ill throw up all sorts of random pics,so unless you know your stuff,this is best avoided,as the pic of that Hetzer shows,as Alan pointed out Das Reich did not use them, there will be a list of colours in a decent book of waffenfabre colours,such as recce troops had yellow( from the original light cavalry units who were used in this role in previous wars),infantry white,panzer grenadiers grass green,engineers black and so on. I own several books with that information. They did not cost much at all,I can list a title or two if you wish.
Tank numbers can be black,a was the case with 12th SS Mk4's in Normandy,red,even blue and a sort of green colour. This all depends on unit,time etc.

[sediment]

Thanks Ray,

The Waffenfarbe colours weren't really an issue for me, as you say, there are several good illustrated books available.

My question was more related to whether tanks carried number plates, which it appears they didn't, although wheeled vehicles and half tracks did. Then divisional insignia seems to be quite variable, both in terms of whether they were marked at all and where on the vehicle they were placed. I'm really interested in 9th SS for Arnhem, and pictures showing divisional insignia seem thin on the ground. I've marked up my 250s and 251s, as this seems to be pretty consistent across a variety of units, as well as an Opel Blitz truck and Maultier, which leaves me with the Stug IIIGs. I'm tempted to pop the divisional insignia on the front glacis as per some of the examples shown previously, although on the Britannia models, this is covered by a tow chain mounting. Then there's the issue of whether to add vehicle numbers, as again this seems to be a bit variable. I'm still in two minds about whether to add numbers to my Stugs or not.

Cheers, Andy

[Alanmccoubrey]

Andy, I fell into the old trap of talking about Hohenstaufen when I meant Frundsberg. Hohenstaufen had NO StuG III's at Arnhem having lost or handed over all of them before the landings, the only fully tracked AFV's in the Division being a pair of Jagdpanzer IV L/48 and the three Möbelwagen . However my comments do hold good for the Ardennes when there were two companies of StuG III in the II./SS PR 9, therefore you have to put numbers on them.

[sediment]

Thanks Alan,

Funnily enough, I did think of Jagdpanzer IVs for the Hohenstauffen, but opted for Stugs as I can buy more of them for Battlegroup Market Garden so they offer more bang for my buck, so to speak. I'll mark both vehicle types up for 9th SS so I can use the Jagdpanzers for historical Arnhem scenarios and the Stugs for the Ardennes or hypothetical Arnhem games. I assume to be of any use (i.e. visible), numbers on Stugs would have been on the Shurtzen plates?

Cheers, Andy

[ray]

I would like to get 2 Jagdpanzer 4 and a Mobelwagen,I have been thinking of getting these for a while,the only Jagdpanzer 4 I own is a Britannia model which I have as 12thss. I have plenty of stugs but one Jagdpanzer 4,si time to even that up.

[Alanmccoubrey]

The photographs that I have of StuG's ,belonging in this case to Frundsberg, at Arnhem are very interesting. Some have Zimmerit and others don't, numbers are on the skirting and rear plate of the engine deck as are crosses. As I said before one StuG has Mickey Mouse painted on the left side of its superstructure, it has no skirting plates and no numbers on its sides, or for that matter no Zimmerit and only three road wheels on the left side.

[ray]

Is this it Alan.

[Alanmccoubrey]

Yes, I see that I lied, it has 4 road wheels

[ray]

It looks rather battered Alan,must be a Normandy Veteran.

[sediment]

It's also missing about 1/3rd of the track guards/hull deck along that side. The image is a bit small, but from the looks of the conchoidal fractures along the edge of the missing guards, it's the result of HE, possibly a mine strike where the wheels are missing? Guess in desperation the track was repaired and they kept it on roads as I doubt it would cope with uneven ground, missing those wheels.

I have 4 Stugs, 2 Armourfast kits without Zimmerit and 2 Britannia resin castings, with Zimmerit and, I think, concrete castings around the mantlet. I numbered them last night on the shurtzen and added insignia on the front glacis plates and, for the Britannia kits on the rear engine deck. There isn't enough room to place decals on the rear deck of the Armourfast models!

I've also assembled my Matchbox Jagdpanzer IV, so hope to have that ready soonish. It needs a partner though, so I think I may order 2 from Grubby, as the Matchbox version is 1/76 and Grubbys vehicles tend towards the chunky end of 20mm. The matchbox version is also the long barrelled version, so will need short barrels for Arnhem.

Hope to have some photos ready to post of my 9th SS battlegroup plus options soon.

Cheers, Andy